The Daily Star (TDS): What do you have to say about the state of religious extremism in Bangladesh?

Dr. Imtiaz Ahmed (IA): All countries have some form of extremism, even developed Western countries—on both the left and the right wings. They have a kind of governance which allows them to handle extremism in a manner that sends the message that no one can get away with militant activities. The problem in Bangladesh is that we have a weak system of governance. Especially with the current political crisis, extremists have an open space to operate which otherwise would easily have been contained.

TDS: It is argued that mainstream political parties help legitimise certain groups by giving them a voice in the political arena that is disproportionate to said groups' electoral support. What's your take on that?

IA: Because of polarised politics, the idea that one must win the election by hook or by crook and the winner-takes-all attitude, parties are ready to form an alliance with any group that will help them win. The system of electoral democracy creates a situation where such groups have a voice disproportionate to their electoral support. 

Let's consider the example of Jamaat-e-Islami and look at the voting pattern in the last twenty years or so. Interestingly, the vote bank of Jamaat has declined; it used to be as high as 12% and got down to 8%, then 4%. Here's a party whose vote bank is decreasing, but both the major parties are using this party; they are empowering this party despite it not carrying that much weight when it comes to vote bank. 

Even Hitler and Mussolini were elected under the structure of an electoral democracy; Narendra Modi too was elected after the Gujarat riots. Electoral democracy and polarised politics have created this kind of a structure.

TDS: It has been observed that strands of intolerance in the form of strict, puritanical interpretations of Islam have infiltrated our society. How can we tackle this?

IA: Firstly, there has been a serious decline in Islamic scholarship and in the understanding of tolerant Islam. All religions are complicated but investment in their scholarship is important. Those who interpret these religions are often in doubt. You will hardly find students entering Islamic schools; they're becoming engineers, doctors, economists, etc. Islam, a multifaceted religion, is being interpreted by those with a mediocre understanding of it. 

Secondly, petrodollars play a big role in the age of globalisation. Bangladeshi migrant workers, bringing in large sums of remittance, live in the Middle East where there is a huge democratic deficit and rigid madhhab's. These workers, most of whom are semi-skilled and unskilled, hardly have any knowledge of Islam. When they go to the Middle East, they are influenced into taking the interpretation of Islam there to be authentic, and they try to export it back to Bangladesh. There is no counter-discourse in Bangladesh reinforcing our understanding of Islam.

Finally, there is the role of polarised politics, which means parties trying to win by whatever means possible. They don't counter the hardliners or the distorted understanding of things.  

So you have problems on three levels: the decline in Islamic scholarship, petrodollars and migrant workers, and polarised politics.
 
TDS: Madrassas are widely believed to be a breeding ground for militants. Nowadays, however, we see many youngsters from affluent families being recruited as well. Could you elaborate on that?

IA: We cannot label madrassas as the "breeding ground." University of Chicago has carried out a survey on suicide bombers. They found that most of the suicide bombers around the world are engineers. Is anyone talking about changing the curriculum of engineering universities? Osama bin Laden was also an engineer who hailed from an affluent family. You have people from the US, UK and Canada joining IS. These people weren't educated in madrassas. 

Even in secular schools, the curriculum can produce intolerant minds. The heroes in one version of history become villains across the border in another version. You need to look at the bigger picture that is knowledge production. You need to invest in Islamic scholarship. Otherwise, you are going to breed intolerant minds both in madrassas and secular schools. Magnifying madrassas as the core problem is not the way to go about this.

TDS: Then what would you say is luring these youngsters from wealthy families into militancy?

IA: You are not going to find a marginalised and impoverished person readily joining militancy. It's often those from wealthy families who have the luxury of an ideological commitment.

In the western countries, it's largely because these individuals feel alienated; these "mono-societies" have a mono-cultural element. Alienation breeds intolerance. Whether it's Palestine, Iraq, Lebanon, or the Arab Spring failing right before your eyes, you are returning to the old structure, creating that "space" for militants to thrive.

TDS: Laws like the Anti-Terrorism Act and Money Laundering Prevention Act have been enacted. What other measures should be taken to tackle terrorism efficiently?

IA: You need four i's to counter terrorism. The first "i" is incarceration which means you need to police these activities and oversee rules and regulations.

The second "i" is intelligence. The 19th and 20th century intelligence is not going to help you because this is a non-state threat. Before, it was "Big Brother is watching you," in the Orwellian sense. Now it is, "The Little People are watching you," as Haruki Murakami said in his book 1Q84. We need to restructure our intelligence in a much more creative way. 

The third "i" is intellectual investment; because of the serious decline in scholarship of religious studies, we need to incorporate them at all levels of education. 

Finally, the fourth "i" is institutional investment. We need national institutions that monitor such activities, involve all stakeholders and carry out independent research to detect threats. These four i's combined will surely help curb militant activities.